Would you consider a serious relationship with someone knowing she believed in premarital chastity?I've been agonizing over this question for the past week or so. Not so much about the question itself, but whether answering it in a public venue was a good idea. And of course once I realized the nature of my discomfort, I had to face it straight-on. Sometimes I don't like the way my brain works.
Until someone actually asked me the question (thanks bunches for putting me on the spot, by the way), I thought the answer would be a clear no. I think I've written before about what I think about casual sex vs. premarital sex in general, but it bears repeating that I'm on board with the idea of sex being best in a committed, caring relationship. I'll also repeat that I think it very strange to completely cut off such a integral part of our humanity over what seems like outdated, puritanical impulses. I think I've mellowed a little in my attitudes during my recent exposure to other traditions and cultures, but by that I mean I have more respect, when before I thought they were just silly. Are they for me? Probably not.
But in the final analysis, I think the choice is a false one. That is, who ever gets to make a decision like that without having a certain amount of investment in the relationship already? There's really no way of knowing how serious a relationship is going to be at the outset, is there? And not even starting one over an issue like sex feels extremely petty to me, almost like not making a friend just because she isn't going to sleep with you. Not quite that, but close. Do I think it would be a potential source of friction? Well, honestly, yes (No, not that way. Ok, that way too).
Friends are definitely not a help here. I don't think I've ever asked about any of my closest friends' sex lives. And asking my married friends outside of traditions like LDS about whether they even faced that decision? Can't imagine it, except in the most passive, hinted at, blog-related, anonymous-comment ways. And now that I think about it, some of my older friendships are with people who probably don't read my blog (I feel as awkward telling someone I'm a blogger now as I do telling them I'm a Quaker!). Wait, I did have a friend describe a committed relationship as starting out with "and then she seduced me," but I certainly didn't ask. I had some very valuable insight from my last post on sexual morality, but certainly not from facing this specific issue.
Wait, maybe I'm making a false assumption on that front. I assumed that the original questioner was asking me a hypothetical (though now that I think about it, I should probably confirm that), and there isn't a really good reason not to pose this question to my friends, married or single. Hey, what a good reason to tell my friends I have a blog! Ok, remember to delete that before telling anyone. Ok, resolved that I will advertise this post to my friends who don't know I have a blog.
This certainly doesn't cover all traditions that I've come across, but there's something about making the sex act dirty, depraved, and associated with guilt that I've never understood. Maybe that's just an upbringing thing. "Sex is sinful" is another point that I'm able to brush aside. It just doesn't ring true with me, and explaining why is probably redundant.
Someone commented to me that premarital sex is linked with promiscuity, but in my mind, the two issues are separate. Possibly related, but separate and a different conversation. So it's not like the choices are "no sex, or pro-orgy [thanks for the phrasing]."
Another interesting idea is that it's a red flag for a general values mismatch. That's a bit more troubling, and probably requires more thought. In general, I think that good communication can overcome that, but thinking that communication and intellectualizing are the solutions for all problems is probably my Achilles Heel.
I have to admit that part of my ego tells me it wouldn't actually be an issue. Maybe I have too much faith in my devilish tongue (No, not that way. Ok, that way too). What a horrible thing to think, but it's in my head and I'm writing it. On the other hand, there's a lot that can go wrong with convincing someone to reject what can be an important cultural/religious tradition. Success in that case can't be just having sex, it has to be about the other person actually being ok with the decision long-term. Or else, it's just being a jerk. The 20-year-old me who lives inside my head is arguing very strongly with me, but that's the way I feel.
Yeah, I'd better delete that entire last paragraph too. Way too embarrassing.
So I'm throwing this out there to all my ... legions of readers to get their feedback. I'm sure there's some thoughts that haven't passed through my mind. Some considerations I haven't made. Some cultural justifications to premarital chastity I don't know about. Etc. Bring it on, and remember you can always do so anonymously.
And for my old friends reading my blog for the first time, yes, this is really what goes on in my head. And I apologize for that. :-)
My apologies in advance if this comment sounds insensitive or abrupt. My initial reaction to this post is that yes - it is over-intellectualizing the issue. I wonder - what prompted this navel-gazing? After getting over this impulse, I realize that your internal wrangling is a reflection of your (John's) concern over the ethical premises of your decisions - the a priori warrants for your actions and indeed your own internal moral calculus. This is admirable, but might also belabor the issue at hand.
ReplyDeleteThe crux of this "pondering" rests heavily on the role of presumption itself; for when one settles the presumptive dimension, one can then establish a reasonable and ethical mode of action. Thinking out loud about presumptions invites us as readers to add voices, but does this really solve your moral "dilemma" (if there even IS one). I am saying: do you really need a presumptive guidepost about this issue, now or ever?
I know that I do not come from the background shared by some your other readers. I probably have a slightly different attitude towards sex in general because of this different cultural prism, which may have hypothetically resulted in different behaviors and experiences. I've never had any serious cultural, religious, or moral belief dictate my sex life aide from a more general respect for the welfare of others. Also, I've never truly been "promiscuous," probably more of a serial monogamist. So consider my advice in terms of its origins.
First, I do not cleave to any dogmatic or cultural code that discourages premarital sex between consenting, caring adults. The only normative belief I have about sex is that it should reflect sincerity and respect for the partners involved. Sex often results organically from both physical and emotional contexts - situations where it is the next step in an evolving relationship. Or sometimes, it's just a lapse in judgement! ;-)
But when it's part of developing relationship - it is just that: a development (ideally a positive one). Now, not all share this view I know. Cultural and religious views can proscribe such behavior. This can be a good thing, because it adds new layers of meaning to sex. The act becomes uniquely special and symbolic of love and commitment if it is only allowed in marriage. But where does that leave those who are more agnostic about their sexual "codes"?
I'll admit that I'm kind of a "let love rule" kind of person. Sex is a great expression of affection and love. And I believe that we have the freedom to attach any other sorts of meaning to it in order to fulfill our sense of self.
If it becomes an "issue" in a relationship - it speaks to fundamental incompatibilities that are either resolved by someone accommodating their own beliefs, or simply signal that a sexual relationship is not in the cards. John, you said it best: "Another interesting idea is that it's a red flag for a general values mismatch. That's a bit more troubling, and probably requires more thought."
I'm not convinced it requires much more thought. It's entirely situational and relative to the moral codes that *may* be conflicting. Again, you confirm my beliefs on this matter: "There's really no way of knowing how serious a relationship is going to be at the outset, is there? And not even starting one over an issue like sex feels extremely petty to me, almost like not making a friend just because she isn't going to sleep with you."
One shouldn't cut off a relationship unless one feels strongly enough about sex to make it a defining issue. At the same time, to feel "pre-guilty" about potentially violating someone's cultural stigmas over premarital sex seems to be premature at best, and possibly reflective of too much anxiety. IF someone who is against premarital sex actually engages in the act in violation of their religious morals - that is *their* decision as much as it is yours. Ultimately, you have to be satisfied with the boundaries of your responsibility. And be realistic about them too.
In sum, I would say that I believe that relationships should be allowed to proceed organically. If religion, ethnicity, or any strong cultural code gets in the way - it will, and that's part of life. Respect the other person enough to allow them their own moral compass - however they want to adjudicate it. This attitude compliments your existing and laudable concern for others.
I hope this "thought exercise" has helped out to some degree. And hopefully I've not missed the mark.
Anon: I really appreciate your time and comments.
ReplyDeleteTo summarize:
1) John, you're navel gazing
2) It might not be helpful to think this out ahead of time
3) Let love rule
4) +1 on relationships just developing, and not being faced with the actual decision
5) +1 on red flag
6) calling me on feeling pre-guilty for talking someone into sex
I want to reinforce that this is definitely a navel-gazing exercise, not a real-life dilemma. I accept your critique, if I understand it correctly, that it might be a bit over-the-top to think these kinds of things out ahead of time (no plan lasts past the first engagement; Well, that saying might not work here).
I would like to highlight a difference of opinion that we seem to have about areas of responsibility. I can't imagine myself as the creepy frat-boy pressuring someone into having sex, but it seems like for the sake of a healthy relationship, impulse sex wouldn't be that good of an idea.
I'd like to mention two potential negative outcomes that were posited to me:
1) "you knew I was religious.. yet you let it happen anyway!"
2) she could start to hate herself for being weak and then twist that guilt into resentment towards me.
As for the first one, that's a definite problem with dating someone fairly young. And as for the second, I'm guilty of thinking that discussing things ahead of time is the cure. Which might not be that spontaneous.
My post has provoked an avalanche of discussion if the metric is word count! :-)
Wow, so many questions here. Let me just ask you first...Where is the line for you between relationship and friendship? If you have always defined a serious relationship as something that's about sex, then I think the no-sex prohibition becomes a big deal. But if you've defined a relationship about a sort of mutual emotional exclusivity, then that could certainly happen with or without sex.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I may be out on a limb here, but I had several really intense and intimate relationships with people that never led to sex (for various reasons including our ages/ religion/ other commitments). And some rather shallow relationships that were totally about sex. I just don't see sex as a necessary part of a serious relationship.
Where is the line for you between relationship and friendship?
ReplyDeleteOff the top of my head, I think the difference is mutual romantic attraction.
But if you've defined a relationship about a sort of mutual emotional exclusivity, then that could certainly happen with or without sex.
I can agree to a point. I think I see sexuality as a component of a relationship. Not healthy to let it dominate, but not healthy to ignore or repress either.
I had several really intense and intimate relationships with people that never led to sex
Interesting. Over what kind of time frame? And do you mean emotional intimacy?
I just don't see sex as a necessary part of a serious relationship.
Ok, I appreciate the viewpoint. I don't necessarily disagree.
You wrote:
ReplyDeleteI had several really intense and intimate relationships with people that never led to sex
Interesting. Over what kind of time frame? And do you mean emotional intimacy?
Hmmmm....like one that lasted for 5+ years and we were physically involved up to a point (meaning we kissed lots, did long backrubs, sometimes slept in each others' arms) but we never really considered sex. It just didn't seem 'right' for us. But I would count our relationship as one of my most intense.
Another example: dating a person who was recently divorced. It was an emotionally raw time and we shared much. But sex just didn't fit in there, either. We both saw it as an unnecessary complication in what was, already, a fairly complex relationship.
One more: I was dating someone who, because of religious reasons, had much stronger prohibitions about sexual activity (even making out) than I did. I really cared about this person and tried not to push the boundaries further than I should (for their comfort). It was hard for me because I very much wanted something _more_. But I don't think the exercise in my self-restraint in any way diminished how close we were to each other. If anything, we had to talk things out more and be more communicative simply because I didn't use physical means to share my affection with them.
Sex is one aspect of a committed relationship. All aspects must work at a reasonably good level. If you have weirdness about sex, guess what? The relationship won't work.
ReplyDeleteForget all this guilt, shame, blah blah etc. Further forget modalities and the epystemological origins of flabberdyfloo. It's imperative to determine if I click with the other person's values. Long-held puritanical views about the body and marriage are a blinding indicator that this person and myself probably share very little in the way of values.
Sucks, but they aren't for you as you aren't for them. Everyone wins by dodging that bullet.
In the spirit of continuity I posted anonymous, but it's really just lil' ol' me: RyanH.
Anon: Thanks for sharing such personal details. I thought I had such a simple answer, like RyanH.
ReplyDeleteNow, I'm not so sure.